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[LadyC]

my pastor said he watched this video with a good deal of skepticism, but that it makes a very good case... so i'm posting it here so i won't forget to watch it. maybe we could all watch it and give our thoughts? ok, weird. it appears in the preview, but when i post, the video doesn't appear. but if you scroll down, it does give the link.

take your time with this, it's an hour long.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3224498/9104595

[Marnie]

He does quote from some excellent sources, Dr. Walvoord, Dr Gaebelien, and Dr Fruchtebaum especially.
 
 I think his theology is very sound, but where I have difficulties with this kind of teaching is when current events and personalities are used to uncover previously "secret" conspiracies and so on. 
 
 His conclusion is interesting; the last 3 or 4 minutes sum up the whole teaching and he uses a familiar technique of challenging his audience to "prove his conclusions" wrong.  Of course, nobody can do that because they are his conclusions based on his interpretation of facts.  The facts, both historic and Biblical, are sound, it is his interpretation of those facts that I question. 
 
 He could be right, although the Bible suggests that the Antichrist will not be known until he is revealed, a fact that the teacher mentions then dismisses.  As a staunch pre-trib and pre-mil believer, I can't help but ask this teacher:  Why should I care who the Antichrist is?
 
 The only real problem I have with this kind of teaching is that it is fodder for the "kook" wing of the church.  I know and you know this man is speculating, but I'll guarantee there are people who will latch onto this teaching, run with it, and re-teach it as the Gospel truth, something I am sure even the man in the video would discourage.

[Cindy]

I didn't watch the video yet but intend to.

KC, I take it that you don't believe in the rapture.

[LadyC]

oh yeah, seee, this is why i posted it here, because i'd already forgotten about it! i really gotta watch it.

marnie, you're right.... why should we care who the antichrist is? but it is interesting to speculate. thanks for your insight! now i gotta watch it. i guess i'm not in too big a hurry.

kc, i can answer your question though, even having not watched it, apparently it is, at least in the view of the person talking, the crowned prince of jordan.

[Marnie]

Thinking the "rapture" will occur before he is revealed is not what the Bible teaches. That is pure fantasy. If I am wrong, show me.

Well, with that attitude, why would I waste my time?  There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[KC]

Yeah I guess I am a minority among evangelicals because I can't defend the belief of a rapture.

I am most surprised by those who claim that that belief is the only correct one. I suppose it's fine to believe that way, but I would never say God must do it this way or that way.

The doctrine was crafted based upon the dream of a child in the 19th century and it should make everyone feel uneasy. People use this theory to explain away very plain teachings that the antichrist will be revealed before Christ returns.

(2Thess 2:3 [KJV])
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


I've challenged many pre-tribbers to show me just one scripture in the Bible that shows Christ returning more than once. They can't and therefore they should stop teaching it IMHO.

I didn't watch the video yet but intend to.

KC, I take it that you don't believe in the rapture.

[Cindy]

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at, but Paul wrote this letter to the Thessalonians because they were in a crisis of faith.  They were new believers who had subjected themselves to false teaching.  They came to believe that the day of the Lord had already come and that they had been missed it.  Paul is reassuring them that they weren't lacking in anything but they had to believe that themselves.  The context of this passage is about rebellion, not rapture.

[Cindy]

I was looking around and found this teaching by John Piper.  His teaching has always impressed me but I didn't know this is what he believes.  I don't agree with his belief in this because I am a pretribber but it could spark some interesting discussion.

Here is the audio http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/MediaPlayer/604/Audio/

You can read it here http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByScripture/22/604_What_Must_Happen_Before_the_Day_of_the_Lord/

[KC]

Uh, I like his teaching very much 

I was looking around and found this teaching by John Piper.  His teaching has always impressed me but I didn't know this is what he believes.  I don't agree with his belief in this because I am a pretribber but it could spark some interesting discussion.

Here is the audio http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/MediaPlayer/604/Audio/

You can read it here http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByScripture/22/604_What_Must_Happen_Before_the_Day_of_the_Lord/

[LadyC]

i'm very much a pre-tribber. i don't try to debate it with anyone though. the mid-tribbers and post-tribbers are just as confident in their belief as i am in mine, and it's a wasted effort to try to change anyone's opinion i think. besides, it really doesn't matter WHEN He returns... it just matters that He does, and that we're ready.

[KC]

Sometimes I go back and read what I posted, and think: "Man! it sounds like I have a battitude!"

I don't really have an attitude, I just need a good beating every now and then, like a screaming kid in a Kmart toy isle.

And I figure you are just the one to give it to me  But let's meet on another subject. The rapture thing gets old to me.

Well, with that attitude, why would I waste my time?  There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[Cindy]

 

[Huldrych]

Hello, all...it's been a while.  Since the topic has switched from the man of sin to rapture, I'll throw in my two cents on the latter now, and the former sometime later.

I've never really believed in the rapture--it's just not a topic that has ever really come up in the circles I've moved in.  The messages I and I think most Christians tend to hear are pertinent to getting right and ready now, rather than having a full understanding of what will come later.

My own views of the matter were pretty well solidified when I came across 1. Cor 3,13 one day.  It pretty much convinced me that God is more interested in making sure His people have the right substance.

Unfortunately, some rapture theology, as it is taught, doesn't seem to encourage much endurance.

I don't say I know the end of the matter.  If rapture is part of the plan, it will happen, regardless of what I think.

All I know for certain is that I'm called to prepare now.